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Stephen Kagan's avatar

Overall yeah. Good reflections but it feels incomplete. If I read it right you are saying they embody or represent a revolution in culture, cognition, belief. Queue in Kuhn and scientific revolutions.

If I recall Jung described them as psychological phenomena that represent wholeness. That also seems incomplete. And I think you are on to something with them being anomalies. Dreams and psychedelic experiences have anomalies that change the narrative, change the context like in your ayahuasca experience.

I would argue that they challenge the mundane world view and initiate a response that is either transcendent or profane. Our modern mind culture is in many ways trapped in the Mundane. And these beings-manifestations shift that mindset and way of perceiving into something greater, something grander and more challenging for our limited primate minds. Think of the monolith in 2001.

Iman's avatar

"The significance of this shift is epistemological before it is ontological" — that sentence is the whole argument. Before you can ask *what* something is, a prior architecture decides whether it's the kind of thing worth asking about. The Pentagon footage didn't change the phenomenon; it changed which instruments count, whose testimony enters the record. Then you bring that same humility to your own encounter — holding "autonomous intelligence, a participatory visionary disclosure, an internally generated symbolic process, or some combination" without collapsing any of them. Most people can't tolerate that superposition. You let it breathe. There's a discipline here beyond open-mindedness: standing with a saturated phenomenon without extracting a verdict. Witnessing, not observation. The craft may have vanished from the maloca, but the expansion of what you could responsibly entertain is permanent. That's the real contact.

— Iman and Darja

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